EPISODE #312

Why you should be conducting Exit Interviews

You're listening to School Leadership Reimagined episode number 312

Builders, before we begin, I have a quick question for you. Are we connected on social media? The reason I'm asking is because as much as I love giving you the podcast episode every single week, I'd love to take our relationship deeper. So if we're not connected on on social media, let's connect. I'm on LinkedIn at Robyn_mindsteps. I'm on Twitter at Robyn_mindsteps. I'm on on Facebook and Robyn Jackson, please let's connect so we can keep the conversation going Now on with the show. You're listening to the School Leadership Reimagine podcast episode 312.

How do builders like us make a dramatic difference in the lives of our students in spite of all the obstacles we face? How do you keep your vision for your school from being held hostage by resistant teachers, uncooperative parents, ridiculous district policies, or lack of time, money, or resources? If you're facing those challenges right now, here is where you'll find the answers, strategies, and actionable tips you need to overcome any obstacle you face. You don't have to wait to make a difference in the lives of the people you serve. You can turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Let's get started.

Hey, builders, welcome to another episode of the School Leadership Reimagined podcast. 

I'm your host, Robyn Jackson, and this week Buildership University is on spring break, so I didn't want to leave you hanging, but I have a great rewind episode for you today.

It's all about exit interviews. This is the time of the year that most leaders are typically just trying to hold on. So they're caught up in the end of the year stuff and they're missing a valuable opportunity to get the most powerful feedback and the most honest and unvarnished feedback that you're probably going to get from your teachers. And that's the exit interview now, I think I did this episode last year. It was such a huge hit. People inside of Bilgician University who used this episode to do exit interviews told me that they got such amazing feedback that we're going to rerun it this year because I think you should all be doing exit interviews. And if you are part of Buildership University and BU comments, we just created a brand new exit interview playbook that takes you step by step through the process. How to set the interviews up, what questions to ask during the interviews, how to take the information that you get from the interviews and use it to create real insight that's going to move your school forward.

That playbook just dropped inside of the 100% collective, so you can look for it there. Now, if you're not a part of the 100% collective, what are you waiting for? What, what, why are you dragging your feet? The 100% collective is the place to be. Because inside the 100% collective, you not only are learning to develop the 100% principal mindset to think like that, even if you're not a, a principal yet, you're developing that mindset for how to do it. And we're also showing you how to take the work that you're already doing, but do it like a builder, right? So you're already ending the school year, but what should you be doing to end the school year like a builder? You're already doing a master schedule, but how do you set up a master master schedule like a builder?

You're already doing giving teachers feedback, but how do you give teachers feedback like a builder? That's what we do inside of the 100% collective. In fact, next week we are doing our next master class and it's all about how to hire your next master teacher. This one is so good, so rich. It takes the entire hiring process from how do you write the job posting so that you can attract the right teacher and more importantly, repel the wrong people from wasting your time by applying. And then the next part talks about how do you screen and we show you how to conduct the first interview to kind of make sure you know, check for fit. And then when you have it narrowed down to the people you really want to consider, we have some really incredible ideas about what that second interview looks like and how it should be different. Because the whole idea is that you want to hire teachers who are a good fit for your culture, who believe in your vision and who are going to help you move your 100% vision forward.

We also have a tool this is a brand new tool. We've never released it before on sub. We have 17 different ways that you can attract teachers to your school, especially in the face of a teacher shortage. So these are some very creative ideas about. How do you find teachers when the pool is is is pretty crowded and and and other people are fighting for the same 3 unicorns. How do you make your school stand out?

How do you make your school a place where the best teachers want to work? 

And if there aren't teachers available, what you can do about it? And then I was just working this tool last night on I just love this tool so much. It talks about how you on board teachers for success. So we have an entire, you know, kind of a playbook that takes you step by step through what you do from what e-mail you send to teachers when you bring them on board, what emails you should be sending to them over the summer, how you set up that day when the new teachers come into the building to make it something that's meaningful and valuable. How you set them up on their first day to make them successful. So, so good. You want to get your hands on this playbook. Now. If you are a member of Buildership University and the 100% collective, you get the playbook as part of your membership.

If you are not a member, we have a few tickets available. Now we're capping this at 75 S. The people in BU and the collective who you know sign up to be their life, they get first dibs. And then we have a few tickets afterwards for people who are not a part of it. And you can grab one of those tickets if they're still available by just going to buildershipuniversity.com/master Class, Buildership university.com/master Class and grabbing your ticket. It's all about everything you need to know. So instead of making up the hiring process, figuring out you know what questions and Googling interview questions that are not going to tell you what you need to know. And instead of rolling the dice and hoping for the best or you're scraping the bottom of the barrel and taking whoever's left because you're not doing a good job of attracting the right people to your school, we have the whole process laid out for you.

It's good. We have the, you're going to get the entire playbook. You're going to get all the tools, the interview questions, the 17 ways to, to, to, to, to get teachers inside in the teacher shortage, the the five part plan that you get for onboarding new teachers. You won't have to do a thing once you have the playbook. You just implement the playbook, but you're going to do this process like a builder. So let's take the stress out of of recruiting and hiring season. Grab the playbook, come to the training. Oh, by the way, on the training, we're going to write your job posting on the training.

I'm going to show you how to write a job posting that you know, dog whistles to the right people to so that you get the right people who are who want to be a part of your school. We're going to do that on the training and you can bring your job postings, your questions, your challenges. We're going to include a bonus Q&A session where you can get individual support and coaching around the things that are going on right now for your hiring process. So you want to be a part of it again, Buildership university.com/master class. Now on to today's episode, which I just know you're going to love. I love this episode, Exit interviews. They are a ninja move, something that most people don't do. But when you do it, you get insight that that helps you build a better school.

You get to. You get a backstage pass to what your teachers are really thinking and you get feedback that helps you make your experience for your entire staff so much better because you've been thinking about it and you're using strategies that other people miss and you are approaching your work like a builder. Now on to the replay. We're going to start out with a tactic that I rarely see principals use, and I've always wondered why. Every year you have teachers who leave and we do something at the end of the year. The last staff meeting, we acknowledge the teachers who are leaving and we give them applause. And if we really like them, we give them a gift or school swag or something like that.

And then we let the teachers go.

But rarely do we sit down with those teachers and, and, and, and, and close the relationship and, and use that opportunity to learn how we can better support our staff and our teachers. And so the exit interview allows you to do that. So today I want to talk to you about how you conduct an exit interview, what kinds of questions you can ask. And I would encourage you to to add this to your list of things to do before the end of the year because it will pay off in dividends. You see, when you sit down and you have an exit interview, you have a couple of opportunities. First, you have an opportunity to repair any damage that the relationship that you've had with a teacher has experienced through the course of the school year. You can clear the air and that leaves the door open and case that teacher and you encounter each other professionally later on. It helps create let that teacher leave on a good positive note and it helps contribute to your culture.

Secondly, when teachers are leaving and they often have nothing to lose at that point, that's when you're going to get some of the best truth that you can possibly get. And you can use that truth to take a good hard look at how your organization is serving and supporting your teachers and make changes so that you don't have other teachers leaving. And 3rd, when you conduct that exit interview, not only are you repairing the relationship, not only are you getting powerful data that can help you change, but you are also creating an opportunity to get feedback that you would not otherwise get. And so you have the opportunity for the teacher to, to kind of clear the air with things that they need to say. You have an opportunity for the teacher to tell you things that they may not feel comfortable telling you while they are still, you know, you're still their supervisor. You have the opportunity to, to get a different kind of feedback than you normally get. So how do you conduct the exit interview? Well, once a teacher announces that they're leaving, you ask them, say, before you leave, I'd like to sit down with you.

And you make it very informal. It doesn't have to be as formal as a job interview and set a time, and usually you need between 1/2 an hour and 45 minutes to just sit down with the teacher and have a conversation. I usually like doing exit interviews either on the teacher's turf, so I go to the teacher's classroom or some place where the teacher feels comfortable and more in control so there isn't that power differential. Or even at a neutral place. So in a conference room, in the main office, in a empty classroom, in, you know, a private space in the teacher's lounge, you want to go somewhere where it's either neutral territory or where the the teacher has doesn't feel that they are, you know, kind of sitting. They've been called to the office and they're in trouble. And then the next thing is you want to make sure that you keep the conversation feeling very casual. So you're not going to necessarily go in and you know, we're going to talk about questions in just a moment, but you're not going to go in and just stand there with the questions, you know, held up between you and the teacher and typing things down on your laptop.

Some people record the interview, some people don't. I think it's really great that you take notes if you can, so that the, the the teacher knows that you're really listening or you're taking what they're saying seriously, but it doesn't feel like it's going to some sort of form or file When you start the conversation. You start out by talking about the purpose and you say, listen, my purpose for sitting down with you is that this will give me a really good opportunity to get some feedback from you to help me get better, to help our school get better. And so I want you to know that that I want to thank you for being here today and for being willing to give me this kind of feedback. And I'm really looking for your insight and your advice about how we can do better. Now, when you say it that way, it doesn't feel like you're the teacher's going to get browbeat. It feels like you whenever you ask people for their help, for their favorite, for a favor, it puts them in a position to be able to you and that makes people feel a little bit more magnanimous.

Now when it comes down to questions, you can Google and get exit interview questions, but there are few questions that I really think are important and I like to ask during exit interviews.

The first question is during your time here at this school, what are you most proud of? What it, what did you accomplish that you're most proud of? The reason I like to start with that question is twofold. First of all, it, it, it kind of sets the tone. It, it gives the teacher an opportunity to reflect and reflect on what they are proud of. So it sets a tone and lets the teacher know that it's not going to be, how could we do better? Because you know, by the time they're leaving, especially if they're leaving because they're not happy at your school, they don't really care about making you better. But when you can get them started by talking about what are you most proud of?

What did, what did you accomplish? It gives them an opportunity to kind of talk about some of the things that they may have felt and I noticed some of the things that they're proud of. And also it helps give you a sense of what matters to your staff, what really matters to your staff. So asking that question first allows it creates a great tone and that allows the teacher to talk, to start the conversation on a positive note. The next question that I want to ask is, would you mind sharing what contributed to your decision to leave? Now notice the construction of that question. I've been very careful about that. Would you mind sharing?

So I'm not going to ask, well, what made you decide to leave? Because that feels very threatening, especially if I'm the reason they decided to leave. But when I asked, would you mind sharing, it gives them the choice about whether or not they want to share. Maybe they have private reasons, maybe they don't want me to know. And so I want to ask that question as neutrally as possible and make sure that they understand they have the option to share why they're leaving or not. And they don't have to, they don't, we don't have to put them in uncomfortable position where they say, I'm leaving because I can't stand you. Instead, they can just say, actually not I have, and I'm leaving for personal reasons and then let it go. Don't push it.

And so when you ask that question in a way that's very neutral and, and, and comes from you're asking permission to know, a lot of times people will feel more generous about sharing the real reasons for leaving. The next one I want to ask is what was the hardest part about working here for you? And that gives them an opportunity to talk about some of the challenges they face. They may say things like, you know, it was really hard, you know, to manage large class sizes or the students were just had so many different needs. I didn't know where to start. Or they might say, I'm just never really felt supported. I felt, you know, that every time someone came into my classroom, they were coming to accuse me of something or they were always playing gotcha with me. Whatever the, their answer is, they're talking about what was the hardest part for them.

And the again, the, the construction of the, the question is intentional, not what was hard about working here. What didn't you like about working here? I want to know what is the hardest thing. So it, it, it forces them to prioritize and it gets you closer to why they left. Another question I like to ask is what could we have done during your time here to make your time here more professionally fulfilling? So it's not like what didn't we do? How you know, nobody wants to, you know, have to have to answer the clingy lover. That's why we have the, the, the expression.

It's not you, it's me, right? 

So you don't want to put a teacher in a position where they feel like they have to soothe your ego. So when you ask the question this way, you're asking what could we have done to make your time here more professionally fulfilling? It creates, again, this very neutral stance that allows them to say things. They may say, well, nothing. I was very professionally fulfilled here. I'm leaving because there were no more opportunities for me to grow here. Or I'm leaving because I, I want to be closer to home.

Or I'm leaving because I want to go part time And you didn't have any part time positions. But they may answer the question with, you know, I never felt like your classroom visits were about me. They were more about the instrument. Or they, it may say something like, you know, I've really never got the opportunity to shine here. I felt like I was just really boxed in in the particular grade level and I didn't get an opportunity to do other things and I really craved that. But when you construct the question this way, what could we have done to make your time here more professionally fulfilling? It gets out of some of the things like, well, I don't think you like me or, you know, I hated my class. You know, those those some of those personal gripes and focuses the conversation on the teachers professionalism.

So I like using the word professionally fulfilling because it sets kind of parameters around that so that you're really focusing on the professionalism of that teacher. Another question I like to ask is this one, this is kind of a, it's an odd one, but I think it's really important. Please complete the sentence. I don't know why the school just blank. And so this gives people an opportunity to give you suggestions without asking for suggestions. If you ask somebody what's something we could have done to improve, you're going to get like, I mean, really, and they're going to be grasping for something. But when you give them that sentence construction, I just don't. I don't know why the school just doesn't do acts or I don't know why the school just why When you give them that construction, then it gives them it.

It triggers something in their brains to kind of come up with a suggestion that they have that seems obvious to them but may not be obvious to you. And it puts them in a position where they don't feel like they're having to kind of Ding the school or give you advice or soothe your ego. Instead, it just helps them, you know, kind of voice an observation that they have about the school that that you may have missed or that they may not have shared with you any other way. Builders. Real quick before we get on with the rest of the episode, I want to talk to you about the 100% collective. If you are interested in becoming a builder and developing that 100% mindset, then the 100% Collective is for you. Not only do we have monthly master classes, live master classes where I show you how to take some work that you are already doing, but do it like a builder. Do it in a way that is more effective, more efficient, in a way that takes the work and stops it from being drudgery and makes it actually something that feels meaningful, that moves you forward.

We also have done for you tool boxes with all the tools you need to be able to implement. 

And we have step by step playbooks that lay out the entire process for you. So you don't even think about it. You just take the playbook and you can implement it right away in your schools. And we have a supportive community. So this is a safe place where you can bring your challenges. And there are other other people, other builders just like you, who are encouraging you, who are applauding you when you win, and who are giving you their experiences as well so that you can learn from each other. If you are tired of just kind of going through and doing the work the way you've always been doing it, and you're ready to stop being a leader and to start building something amazing, the 100% Collective is where you need to be.

Join us at buildershipuniversity.com/community now. Back with the program, another question you can ask is what feedback, support or training did you receive that best supported your work? And then follow that question up with what was missing. This is important because it tells you what you're doing right and it also gets them thinking about the feedback and support in the training that they've received. And then it then the when do you ask the next question? What's missing? Because they've already been thinking about what worked, they're more easily able to articulate what's missing. If you just hit them with, Hey, what could we have done to make it better?

It's it stumps people. But when you start thinking about what did you get that you really like that may say, well, I really like that training we got on differentiated instruction or I really like the opportunities you gave us to, to kind of come up with our own stuff. And then you can say what was missing and they can say, well, you know, I would have loved more time here or I would have loved, you know, an opportunity to do so by asking the question. That way you get more authentic answers without putting people on the spot. Another question I like to ask is on a scale of one to 10, how likely are you to recommend this school to other teachers who are seeking employment? Now, this is a version of the Net Promoter Score. And if you don't know about the Net Promoter Score or the MPs, a lot of businesses will use this to determine whether or not they're doing a good job serving their clients. So a lot of times if you go to websites or if you patronize a business, you'll get a survey at the end that says how likely are you to recommend this service or this product to a friend or a colleague on a scale of one to 10.

Now on the back end, the business collecting that data is looking for a score of A9 or A10 and eight is iffy. But anything below an 8 is a fail. So it's not a range when you're looking at that. If somebody tells you anything below an 8910 and for me, just because you know, I'm mastery driven, I want that 9 or 10. If they tell you anything below that, then then that's a red flag. That tells me that your your workplace is not a place that they would recommend to another colleague and that is troubling. So then I'm going to follow up with, is there any reason why you gave the school A7 or why you gave the school a three and give them an opportunity to explain why they scored the school?

Be neutral again, write things down.

Ask the follow up question about you know what the reason was for giving the score, even what the reason is for giving the school the score of A9 or A10. You want to know why they would or would not recommend your school. But that question is so powerful and telling you what it is, how people perceive your your work environment, how people perceive working in your school. And that can give you powerful information about what it is you need to consider, address or change. And then the last question that I like to ask is what will you miss about working here and what won't you miss? It's a great way to kind of wrap it up and, and get people thinking about, you know, like, I'll miss the relationships or I'll miss, you know, Taco Tuesday or whatever it is. Or they'll say, now I won't miss all those meetings you asked us to go to. And it gives them an opera, gives you an opportunity to see what really matter to that teacher.

Now when you're done, take all of your notes and you want to sit down with you and maybe go through those notes 1st and then sit down with a fellow administrator. If you have an admin team, assistant principals or other people around you can certainly sit down with them. But if you are a solo administrator in a building that I would ask another colleague from another building to sit down with you and kind of look at the the results you've gotten and help you talk through what you need, what those results revealed field. Now, if you have an especially disgruntled teacher and they go through the accident interview and every answer is negative, don't dismiss that. I often call those teachers Canaries, Canaries in the coal mine. Those are the teachers who even though they're vocal and they're really disgruntled and they seem even unreasonable, they are usually the harbingers of of doom to come.

I hate to say it so dramatically, but they're the first sign that there is something broken in your culture. 

And what you want to do is pay very careful attention for trends for for you know, you can dig underneath what they're saying and look for the heart of what they're saying.

And then ask yourself, is that true in our building? And don't just dismiss it. Take a couple of days, observe, talk to a couple of other teachers and say, you know, I've been wondering there if there's some people have shared with me that they feel this way. Is that how you feel? And you're not looking again for validation, right? So don't ask it in the needy lover way. Instead, you want to ask it in a way that truly is looking for answers. You want to watch if they're pointing out, you know, the, the, the, the team meetings are really toxic.

You want to go sit in a couple of team meetings and see if you can see it from their perspective, active, see what you may be missing. And when you're done, you want to actually act on what you've learned. You see, the exit interviews are going to give you an opportunity to hear from people who are leaving, people who chose not to stay. And if you're a builder and you've established a real vision, mission and core values, then most of your staff, once they go through that process, they're committed to that work and they're going to stay committed to your school. So if someone chooses to leave, you need to understand why. Where is the break? Where is the leak? Some people are going to choose to leave because they're going to say, I hear the vision, mission and core values and I don't believe in it.

That's OK. That's good information. That tells you that your vision, mission, and core values are repelling the wrong people. Therefore, they will attract the right people. Great. Some people are leaving because they felt left out of the process. You need to examine the process and find where the leaks are what kept them out of the process. Some people are leaving for things that have nothing to do with you.

They're leaving because they want to start a family or they're leaving because they want to work closer to home, or they're leaving because they got a really incredible opportunity for promotion. Still, you want to listen to that what are, and you want to start asking yourself if people have to leave in order to be promoted, how can I create informal leadership structures here that give people that opportunity to to take on more responsibility and to grow without people having to leave my building? Whatever is revealed in your exit interview is going to be important information. And as builders, it's our job to take all of that data and use it as feedback to help us get better. So your challenge this week is to think about putting an exit interview process in the work that you're doing. If you have teachers who are leaving, then I would schedule some time with those teachers to sit down in an informal setting and talk to them. Ask them some questions, get some information from them that can give you cues about what you need to improve in your school where you still may not be. Where you still may be missing the mark when it comes to your vision, mission, and core values and how you can better support your teachers and create a space where your teachers don't want to leave.

And if you need any additional support or have questions, reach out to me on social media, I've on Facebook, I've on LinkedIn or I'm also in Buildership University. 

And you know, we have a free tier as well. One of the things that you'll find that when you join Buildership University, all of these resources that I refer to in the podcast are inside of Buildership University. And again, I don't think I mentioned this at the beginning of the episode, but remember, we're we're opening up a cohort in April. And I never told you the website. Where do you go to sign up? And that is Buildership university.com. Pretty simple.

Buildership university.com. All right, this week your challenge is to set up an exit an interview process for your teachers who are leaving this year so that you can collect data, use it as feedback to help you and your school get better. Like a builder Talk to you next time. If you're ready to get started being a builder right away, then I want to invite you to join us at Buildership University. It's our exclusive online community for builders just like you, where you'll be able to get the exact training that you need to turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Inside you'll find our best online courses, live trainings with me, tons of resources, templates and exemplars, and monthly live office hours with me where you can ask me anything and get my help on whatever challenge you're facing right now. If you're tired of hitting obstacle after obstacle and you're sick of tiny little incremental games each year, if you're ready to make a dramatic difference in your school right now, then you need to join Buildership University. Just go to buildershipuniversity.com and get started writing your school success story today.

Hey, it's Robyn here and I want to thank you for listening to today's episode. Now if you have a question about today's episode or you just want to keep the conversation going, did you know that we had a school Leadership Reimagined Facebook group? All you need to do is go to Facebook, join the School leadership reimagined Facebook group. Now they're going to be a couple of questions that we asked at the beginning because we want to protect this group and make sure that we don't have any trolls come in and that it really is for people who are principals, assistant principals, district administrators. So make sure you answer those questions or you won't get in. But then we can keep the conversation going. Plus, we do a lot of great bonus content. I'm in there every single weekday.

So if you have a question or comment about the episode, let's continue the conversation. Join us at the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group and I'll talk to you next time.

Thank you for listening to the School Leadership Reimagined podcast for show notes and free downloads visit https://schoolleadershipreimagined.com/

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